_ | \ | \ | | \ __ | |\ \ __ _____________ _/_/ | | \ \ _/_/ _____________ | ___________ _/_/ | | \ \ _/_/ ___________ | | | _/_/_____ | | > > _/_/_____ | | | | /________/ | | / / /________/ | | | | | | / / | | | | | |/ / | | | | | | / | | | | | / | | | | |_/ | | | | | | | | c o m m u n i c a t i o n s | | | |________________________________________________________________| | |____________________________________________________________________| ...presents... Feed 'Em to the Lions! by Tequila Willy >>> a cDc publication.......1991 <<< -cDc- CULT OF THE DEAD COW -cDc- ______________________________________________________________________________ Who's this God guy that people keep talking about? Some people seriously believe that God exists, while others will argue to no end that such a notion is preposterous. Regardless of your personal ideology, it is possible to successfully "win" an argument either supporting or denying God's existence. The purpose of this file is not to prove or deny God's existence -- after all, that's merely a metaphysical issue -- its purpose is simply to help you have more fun the next time this argument of faith versus reason inevitably presents itself. After all, being an intellectual bully is fun. --------------------------- ARGUING FOR GOD'S EXISTENCE --------------------------- FOREWORD: If you are arguing with someone in attempt to prove that God exists you probably believe that in fact God really does exist. There is no question in your mind that there's a God, help anyone that doesn't see it! The person you are arguing with is probably an atheist. The concept of atheism is largely misunderstood. To be an atheist does not mean that you are dead-set that there is no God, but rather that the evidence needed to provide conclusive grounds that there is a God simply hasn't presented itself. In fact, the word "atheist" simply refers to a denial of theism. Because there is no evidence for God, those who believe in God must do so out of faith. Faith, according the popular definition offered by many dictionaries, is simply a belief that is not based on proof. When you are arguing with an atheist, the atheist is looking for "facts" that will prove that there must be a God, and that is what this argument will attempt to present; "facts". This argument was originally presented by the philosopher Anselm (1033-1109) and though it is flawed, it nevertheless proves to be an excellent argument to use when arguing for God's existence -- as long as you are aware of the argument's fallacies and can argue around them. FOUR SIMPLE STEPS: Step 1: After establishing that your opponent does not believe there is a God, launch into this bit of dialogue; "Obviously before I can prove that God exists, we must first define what God is so that we recognize it when we prove it. God, for the purposes of this argument shall be defined as 'Something-than-which- nothing-greater-can-be-thought'. After all, God -- theoretically -- created the heavens, the universe, the Earth, and all that dwells within it. At least, that's how the story goes, and IF God did exist, as I shall prove to you, then we can presume that God did all these marvelous things. After all, I'm not trying to prove the existence of elves or goblins, but God. God is 'something-than-which-NOTHING-GREATER-can-be-thought'." This step in the argument is crucial to winning -- do not even attempt to proceed to step two of this argument until you have an agreement as to who/what God is (common disagreements to each step in this argument and how to overcome them are presented at the end of this argument.) Step 2: Having established that what you are going to prove the existence of is "something-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought" and this "something..." you will call God, you may begin on this step. This step may be omitted, but it's nice to include to add to the emotive appeal of the argument. "As simple as this 'that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' definition is, I just want to make sure you understand exactly what I mean. For example, if I'm thinking of a God that can raise the land, part the sea, create matter, alter time, and lives forever, and you think of a God with all those characteristics except that he can also run a faster mile than anyone else, then you have the concept of God and not I; for God, by definition is 'that-than-which-NOTHING-greater-can- be-thought'. So, if you're thinking of something greater, then you are thinking of God." Allow your listener(s) to ponder this thought for a moment and proceed to step three. Step 3: Prepare to prove God's existence. "If then 'that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' exists in the mind alone, this same 'that-than-which-a-greater-CANNOT-be-thought' is 'that-than-which-a-greater-CAN-be thought. But this is obviously impossible. Therefore there is absolutely no doubt that 'something- than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' exists both in the mind and in reality. Put simply, a God that exists certainly is greater than a God that doesn't exist, and therefore, by definition, God exists." Step 4: Now, depending upon the alertness of your audience, you may or may not have to use all of these defenses presented here -- you may even have to invent a few of your own. Problem 1: First of all, this argument assumes that existence is a characteristic of greatness and this is not necessarily the case. YOUR EXPLANATION; (let's say you're arguing with William..) "William, as we all know you are a fine [runner]. Do you think that you would be as fine a [runner] if you did not exist? Obviously you are not God, but I am merely pointing out the significance of existence as an important characteristic." Problem 2: If we are to assume that God exists by this definition then we are also to assume that a "secret island of the greatest treasures thought" also exists. After all, if by definition one of the greatest islands of endless treasures exists, and it exists because it wouldn't be great if it didn't exist, then it must exist! This is the big downfall of the argument, but with a lot of emotion and confidence you can pull this off: "It has already been clearly seen, however, that 'that- than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought' cannot be thought not to exist, because it exists as a matter of certain truth. Otherwise it would not exist at all. In short, if anyone says that he thinks that this being does not exist, I reply that, when he thinks of this either he thinks of something than which a greater cannot be thought, or he does not think of it." Problem 3: You might find it difficult to have your audience agree on the definition presented in step 1. They might argue that you can't define something that doesn't exist; if they do this simply ask them what a unicorn is (act surprised and ask if they believe in unicorns!) They might also argue that 'that-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought' is not a suitable definition for 'God'; you may solve this either by asking them to define God (so that you'll know it when you prove he exists) and then add all your own ideas ("...but don't you think God also could...[fill in]?") and eventually you'll wear them down to "...nothing-greater..." Or, you might simply choose to prove the existence of a "...nothing-greater..." and then later add it is this supreme being which we all call God that is this "...nothing greater..." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------- ARGUING AGAINST GOD'S EXISTENCE ------------------------------- FOREWORD: There is one very important thing to keep in mind; you can't prove that God doesn't exist if you reason that he doesn't exist. Simply, you can't prove something doesn't exist. Allow me to elaborate with an example. When a child is crying in his room at night, Mom runs in to see what's wrong. Mom: "What's wrong?"
Child: "There's a monster in my room!" Mom: "No there's not! Where is he?" Child: "He's under the bed!" Mom: "There's nothing here!" Child: "That's because when you looked under the bed, he ran into the closet!" Mom: "There's nothing here!" Child: "That's because when you looked in the closet he ran into the dresser!" Mom: "There's nothing here!" Child: "That's because when you looked in the dresser he ran under the bed!" This child has faith that there is a monster in his room and there is no way, no matter how much Mom tries to see it the child's way, that she'll ever believe there is a monster in the room or prove to the child that there is no monster. Faith, as mentioned earlier, is simply a belief that is not based on proof. This argument, used by the child, can be correctly classified as an argument from ignorance (Argument ad Ignorantiam) -- which is when it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false, or that it is false because it has not been proved true. Believers in God have faith. The arguments presented here against God's existence attempt to appeal to some speck of reason that might possibly still exist in the believer's brain. THE ARGUMENT: This argument is presented in utmost simplicity. The philosopher David Hume (1711-1776) originally presented the argument, "EVIL AND THE PROOF FROM DESIGN" from which this argument stems. Step 1: As with the previous argument, we'll first attempt to define God by assigning several characteristics to God. If you are indeed arguing with believers then it shouldn't prove to be too difficult to assemble the following list of God attributes without too much disagreement. o God is all powerful o God is all good o God is all knowing Step 2: The contradiction in God; launch into this bit of dialogue: "I think we're all smart enough here to realize that contradictions are always false. Right? I mean, if I say; 'I'm six feet tall and I'm not six feet tall,' or 'I have three legs and I don't have three legs,' or 'Art goes to the movies and Art doesn't go the movies', or anything that's contradictory, it's going to be false. After all, how can I assert a true and false statement together and call it true?" Allow your listener(s) to ponder this for a few moments. Step 3: "Obviously, if there is God, then there is Satan. Satan is all evil, and God is all good, right? If God really is all good, then he doesn't want evil. If God is also all knowing and all powerful then he obviously knows how to abolish evil and has the power to do it. Why doesn't he? The only rational conclusion is that some contradiction exists in our definition of God. Maybe God isn't all good and therefore doesn't care about exterminating evil. Or maybe he is good and just doesn't know how to eliminate it or maybe he simply can't. By definition, God can't exist." Accept no compromise; God doesn't exist by definition. After all, if Art goes to the movies and Art doesn't go the movies, we know something is wrong -- something is false! The sentence is false! If we create a contradictory definition of God, then it's false! We haven't proven "a lesser God", we've instead demonstrated the contradiction involved in conceptualizing God and therefore shown that God can't exist. Step 4: You may encounter some immediate objections.. Problem 1: This one is sure to come up if your listener(s) truly have faith in God; "God wants evil to test our faith and our strength!" Reply with the following: "God, by itself, is a very powerful concept without even requiring evil. I mean, after all, he is the master creator of the Sun and the Earth, and is even responsible for life? Right? Isn't it possible that someone, even without experiencing evil, would have trouble seeing how such a powerful being exists?" Elaborate on the overwhelming concept of God, explaining how maybe even someone from a "faithless" family who wanted to believe in God would have a hard time doing so without evidence at all. Or suggest that the presence of evil actually supports God more than it doesn't -- how could there be evil without good? They're concept opposites -- so by allowing evil he is not testing our faith at all, he's instead providing evidence that he exists and that's hardly "faith"! After you get some agreement out of them proceed with.. "Well then, evil isn't really necessary at all to test our faith and strength, is it? The concept of God alone should be test enough of our faith. Therefore, your objection really isn't valid at all, and God must not truly exist." If they jump in with, "But you just said there couldn't be evil without good, and there's evil, so there must be good and therefore there must be God!" Simply explain, "There is no good nor evil, simply events and experiences which may be incorrectly interpreted as being good or evil." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Don't expect any converts by using either argumentative form presented here, but you may find that someone might at least question why they believe what they do -- and to actually invoke thought in another certainly is no easy task. Here's one more dialogue to use.... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ================================================= FUN DIALOGUE WHEN THEY WAKE YOU UP SUNDAY MORNING ================================================= God-Fearing Christian: You don't believe in God!? I'll pray for you! You: I've heard God is forgiving. Is this true? God-Fearing Christian: Yes, of course he is! You: Well, God is a pretty heavy concept. I mean, he created the universe. He created Earth. He created Adam & Eve and is truly responsible for us being here at all. That's a pretty big thing to grasp when you're raised in a faithless family, wouldn't you agree? God-Fearing Christian: Yes, I see how it could be. You: Well then, if I don't believe in God, don't you think he'll see how I had great trouble in believing he exists and forgive me and let me go to Heaven anyway? God-Fearing Christian: [long pondering pause] But you have to ask Jesus for forgiveness! You: Why would I do that? I just told you I don't believe in him; and you said God was forgiving! God-Fearing Christian: Oh, but he is! You: See you in Heaven then! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - THE ROMANS HAD THE RIGHT IDEA; FEED 'EM TO THE LIONS! REPENT, HEATHENS! BOVINITY IS HERE! Moooooooooo... _ _ ____________________________________________________________________ /((___))\|Demon Roach Undrgrnd.806/794-4362|NIHILISM..............517/546-0585| [ x x ] |Paisley Pasture......916/673-8412|Ripco II..............312/528-5020| \ / |Tequila Willy's GSC..209/526-3194|The Works.............617/861-8976| (' ') |Lunatic Labs.........213/655-0691|Condemned Reality.....618/397-7702| (U) |====================================================================| .ooM |Copr. 1991 cDc communications by Tequila Willy 07/20/91-177| \_______/|All Rights Pissed Away. FIVE YEARS of cDc|